-- brutal you see especially the eastern tribes and the benghazi people pity we looked at 40 cases so it makes it a global study of what is going on in the world >> if you take it as a case study and what must give a different situations in your home country. >> pakistan is a central piece of the study. why? because waziristan that is in the tribal areas is one of the most targeted places on earth for the program. it's also one of the trials on the earth and its traditionally never been completely subdued and did it maintains their own

independence with great pride in the culture and in their own traditions. now i'm not talking about the bad guys. they get under the skin and walk about. one day he is being blown up by helicopters and the next day by these crazy suicide bombers, the fourth day by jerome strikes and in complete desperation he sends his family to waziristan so they are living in cities as destitute refugees and they say every day is like 9/11. go back to the man in the village and its impact on women and children. whatever the debate about the drones. remember there is a model in the humanity and that which is

missing in the debate the impact on women and children as devastating and this has been documented in studies like the recent study by stanford and new york university. >> you mentioned the drones talk aboutesituati brigt now i washi. what is the view of the doeand , afghanistan, pakistan? >> you use the word debate. it's just beginning, just starting to pick up. but it complies two opposing points of view. it's very one-sided. you only hear one side. i would like to hear from east turkey who were also victims of the strike, what they think and how they are responding to the we don't hear their voices.

in this book we do your their voices and what they are seeing is that life for us is hell. what have we done to deserve this? we have orders being quoted to live in touch with who said this is like a genocide. how were we to blame someone who did something on 9/11 and it is all being visited in hamas. these are very impoverished areas,acy ates. they are nonexistent kuwait on top of that you have a violence that inflicted on them. you have the breakdown of the traditional structures. the tribal leadership based on geniality, religious leadership and central government policy the stand demolishing waziristan

and the people who've targeted them are these suicide bombers. they have killed something like 400 elders because that is decapitating in the entire t thety, literally. ato yoexp ge t be giving. they are blowing themselves up in schools and mosques and bus stops. it's completely a breakdown of society and it's a big mission. pakistan is an issue of 185 million people about the idea of the attack in the talk of violating national orders, etc., it is the damage that has educated people.

>> these are the reports that are published. it certainly seems he would handle it slightly differently but the abuse has gone up exponentially in fact and the impact on those societies i'm covering in this book has been devastating. so, some way we need to connect the dots and say people who are pressing the button in the midwest or the far west and the united states and across the road entire families and communities and women and children, people going to a funeral and a wedding party have been blown up and then here we see collateral damage there are no civilians being killed. we need to collect these different worlds and see

ultimately is this what we the united states of america stand for, is this what we are exporting to the world? >> how do we connect the dots? >> test began and it has to be multi dimensional. it has to be more than just about security and the legality. it's the crucial element in any society but the united states also stamps for morality and it takes the vision of the founding fathers. a certain kind of society is civilization, civility itself. the only because the title civility in it so these are crucial features of the american vision and i believe that its most profound they are challenged and i think that will come. >> does the u.s. in your view, professor, have legitimate concerns?

>> it has every right to be concerned. it has every kind of precautions hi-lof security. its ambassadors have been killed recently. we saw thistrordinary accomplished diplomat killed. it's just one aspect of the concerns about the security and represents something much bigger it indicates to me the united states symbolizes something that i think very few countries symbolize and that is a vision of the world and the society itself which is different in other societies when we have the killings that do not accept a normal process of the law and end up killing more people than the so-called bad guys.

>> ambassador akbar ahmed is a professor of studies. american university for noesseni fellow with the brookings institution, a viti professor formerly served as pakistan high customer to the u.k. and the author of several books. professor come on you the member of a tribe from your country as pakistan? >> guest: >> that is an interesting question. i have a question as an anthropologist it is critical to put out there for the reader so everyone knows. my mother is a baton, my father goes back to the profit in islam and i've always found the two are very interesting in my makeup comes along the one hand there is the person who would want peace and create good will and bring people together and

compassion more thoughtful and even more mystical. and sometimes these are conflict and i see this in me. so i found that when i was doing the study i was able to get under the skin of the tribal people because that is also part of my heritage but i could reach beyond that and transcend that to reach out and find ways of bringing people together because it isn't just one point of the triangle to talk about it is also bringing the central government and the united states and the tribal people and their elders so that somehow together it is a dialogue again and the solution is found to the prediction that the united states finds itself today. >> what is the role of the geographic country? should it be split up and does it need to remain a nation of tribes? >> if you go to any nation mother is pakistan or iraq they

are just put together after the second world war, they are modern states that have an ancient history. it goes back thousands of years but they have a modern history as a modern state. it took place in 171 because of the internal tensions some of these are exacerbated by these strikes because right now the trouble areas are in flames. pakistan has lost something like 35 to 40,000 people. it's creating a lot of tension in society and the government

isn't particularly popular. you see some tension on both sides and we have to always remember this is a part of the world which combined is 1.5 billion people. that is one fourth of humanity. the united states been a key ally right now to the interest of the united states. the foundations of democracy are strong, that a good clean leadership emergence are involved in the process and the decision making of democracy. >> at what point, professor committed u.s. policy in afghanistan country and afghanistan did the goal arias? >> i think initially the

intention was good work and i think there was a great desire for the democracy and so on. they took very little knowledge of the society. i'd been in the field and very successfully we tackle problems which are major problems for bad guys etc, across the border, without having to move how heavy artillery. have we known a bit more about the cultures, languages, the sensitivities it would have made the task much easier for us and that's happened to read the famous surge in iraq and the attempt is the result of some extraordinary soldiers liked general crystal for example to begin to understand after years.

this is a nation that has seen some of the greatest come and o and th've not been defeated. they saw the entire ultimately defeated and the soviets defeated so how can we assume that we would deny the history itself. >> the foreigners or innovators. had we understand the mechanics of the culture i think we could have handled it very differently. and then strengthened our own impact and footprint in education, health schemes, reaching out the local communities they would welcome americans. i was educated at the american

college. the of the foreign parliament. everyone of us is grateful to the american teachers. there were billions and billions which in the end resulted in hating us. >> investor ahmed coming you write about a recent survey of american and afghan soldiers. this is how they view america. they always shout and yell. they are crazy. they swear at us constantly saying f u to the they don't care about civilian casualties. a date he all over right in front of civilians and putting females.

>> but the americans' fault of -- >> i can go to that next. this is what the americans thought of the afghan forces. we are better off without them. i don't trust locals, they can be sleepers. i would never like to admit i iraqis are smarter but compared to afghans. they only seem to care about their own tribes. >> you see how interesting the conducted in washington they give to allies, two sets of soldiers who were working together. their nothing obvious contempt for each other and that alarmed me because after a decade if you are not able to make friends in the very people that you've invested billions of dollars

within the army said there had been american on the one side and the troops will take over. what is the legacy that we had to disconnect the afghans understand why american soldiers were in their coy? >> no, i give you the sources in that part of the world including the middle east is a great area so some will say it's access to the gas and oil fields. this is because of the good intentions of the americans promoting democracy. my own belief is after the study that a genuinely don't

understand why. they need to be there. that is a different issue. you have china on one side coming emerging to the united states contact and walk away. the host and a potential ally that we need to, that is the question and that is why i believe there has been a failure >> our foot printers will be smaller after 2014. but another kind of footprint. they want the university now and opened a woman swing pity if you have ten spread throughout the tribal areas think of the impact, the future generation in

one stroke for changing the direction of the nation, compassionate civil society said the pakistanis. we must try. the of the local society resisting. it can only be taught at the debate begins to read i'm hoping we will act as a catalyst to this debate. >> professor, how does the sunni shiite issue that we've talked about for the last ten to 15 years play into this? >> it does and it doesn't. this is a minority in pakistan and they play an important role in the army and the various

institutions. it is sent out in the surface till under the surface. it's an extreme understanding targeting the shia for example in pakistan where i was the commissioner that is a breakdown of law and order. no government can allow that to happen. they play its own great game. that balance has to be kept. so if you have an understanding in terms of the region it will contain the tension. >> the country is emerging as a battleground. >> it has the same paradigm. they are tribesmen in

thad been treated as third rate citizens on their own traditional lines by the central government. so they're comes a point when they say enough is enough. what they are being killed or raped and tortured and they want to react. unfortunately this is not a very civilized educated part of the world. these are tribesmen to get most of them are aliterate. they only act according to their own tribal court and it is law of the range killing people it's headed. the central government in response to be a very quickly the cycle begins again and again we are not understanding the dynamics. it is the center and if you can help resolve that, you've resolved the problem. if you can't resolve that, handling them and throwing bombs at them is not plan to resolve

because the central conflict will remain untouched. >> you also talk about the philippines. >> again same situation. the muslim minority group and certain parts of the philippines. they've been independent for centuries and they're seeing the same process, the government coming in and very aggressively taking their lines and converting them into settlers from outside where they become a minority and i found something interesting. they've taken an initiative to reach out to these groups and bring them on board triet how do they do this? is simply negotiated and said you want to preserve your customer, fine as long as you are not against the state we have no objection and just that simple initiative, that simple human act and the remarkable general who actually stood up,

think of an american general doing this in front of the population acally apologized. he said what we have done or atcities a i apologize and people are trying. again, he reached out to the human side of the enemy under the skin of the other side. if you do that things suddenly start changing. and i think we have to start using others to impose some sort of stability of law and order. >> what about the use of jones? >> remember this program is covered with disinformation from obfuscation in the darkness.

>> there have been write ups and this is another tragedy of the present situation. i asked the distinguished senior american i said who's behind the creation of these militant suicide bombers in the tribal areas of pakistan and without thinking they said pakistani. and i said why would they be wanting to block their own schools? i asked pakistan is the same question. without hesitation. if this is a situation on the ground you have allies that don't trust each other and the local people what they are doing their you need the clarity of the vision.

what is the long term vision of the united states for the at does itanto communicate to them? at the light and the darkness right now there is a lot of darkness on the program. it's been a professor, where did the title come from? >> i am a professor on campus and the great russian novelist wrote a novel in which the character is accompanying and fighting these musl muslim tribs fighting these muslim tribes and he goes for a walk and find a pencil and he says they are just like a tistle and that is of

scotland. they have great respect and affectiofor them. they pride themselves on the tradition. you can't walk over them. they give a very tough resistance and the commentators are very often muslim tribesmen to scotsman, so very often western writers would compare particularly in the tribal areas they are fiercely independent so i thought they had one kind of society and the 21st century and it represents another kind of society. it is the ultimate killing machine of the age of globalization. its sleek, you don't see where it's coming, why is it coming at

ch like wall street. you had no iwhat hey were doing, how they were doing it or whether you could even hold them up for retribution for all. so you have another kind of society. and again, i believe these issues have to be discussed in the context of the globalization. we are living as a global society and everything we do here in the united states has an impact over there and vice versa and therefore it tries to integrate the two. spent talking with american university professor akbar ahmed about his recent book the thistle and the drone how a war of terror became a war on tribal. this is book tv at american university.

with guest host thompson of the washington post. this week authors and professor benjamin wiker and his latest book or shipping the state how liberalism became our state religion. and yet, mr. wiker argues those on the political left are organizing the complete christian civilization and a plan to replace personal faith with the collective dependence on the federal government. the program is about an hour. >> host: mr. wiker, or shipping the state is written with a sense of urgency. can you talk about why it was important to write this book

now? >> i used to be frank. over the last come certainly over the last four years i'm a little worried about this administration and that i think is a long term trend as i outlined in the book yet it is using more and more state power to impose a particular world view. a world view i call liberalism and that will go to a definition of that so we are not using the wor osely. but as a christian, i am worried when the state the agency wants to mandate the catholic institutions have to pay for the board of fashions for their insurance programs and i am worried the supreme court starts taking it things like a marriage of things i see at the universities. so i see more and more the state and posing a particular kind of agenda, and it's really a world view. this goes -- this is bigger than politics, bigger than republican

and democrat and that is the world view investigating on the state. .. subalready states were taking the normal desire to worship god and